Oh, Atheists are the Problem...

Comments

[this is good]
I agree that the Muslims are attacking us because of a lack of Islam specifically moreso than a lack of faith in general.
I think his main point wasn't to attack atheism so much as to say that our popular culture isn't representative of the typical American (who remains a believer in some higher power and generally avoids acts of moral depravity such as we can see during Primetime). Yet our popular culture is all that some poor boy in Pakistan will know of America. If you're seized by a powerful radical theology, you're going to want to kill some godless heathens.

I have never believed that the hatred toward America is really about religion or even morality. This war, like most wars, is based in economics. The terrorists hate us because our lives are clearly better than theirs and they are jealous. They are miserable and have been duped into believeing that by making others miserable their lives will somehow improve.

If their leaders weren't so corrupt and ignorant and if their economies actually functioned, very few people in that part of the world would care what kind of garbage the media generate in our part of the world. They would probably criticize us but they wouldn't care enough to get violent.

I agree that appeasement is not the answer.

[this is good]
In this instance I feel questions of religion and ideology have been blown out of proportion. The fact that It is very easy for politicians to turn a situation like this into a Manichaean struggle between good and evil, allows people to entirely disregard America's belligerent foreign policy, which is born out of boundless greed, not any desire to reform the Middle East into a democratic utopia.

which is born out of boundless greed

The same greed that provides more monetary aid than any other country to the various disasters throughout the world, of course. Not including the amount that Americans give through charity, which is far and away more than any other people on the planet.

Greed, my friend, is not the word you're looking for. If one looks at a situation in terms of (our interests) = Good, while (conflicting interests) = Bad, then one would also avoid the polarizing "good vs. evil" talk. But the plebeians don't like things phrased in terms of national interest. They like to hear "right" and "wrong." It's much easier to frame a debate in terms of right and wrong when one has a religious backdrop. And quite frankly when considering Muslim aggression throughout history we are right to be fighting their more radical strains.
Although Americans as individuals may be generous, American foreign policy seems to be definitively based on national interest, which cancels out any statist attempt at international reform. The fact that you class international issues in terms of isolationist utilitarianism only furthers the stereotype that Americans do not care about due process and that you are caught in your own repudiation. Basically, my point is that the reason the anger of fundamentalist Islam was and is directed at America is very complicated, but is not without provocation on America's part. Also Muslims are not nearly as agressive, in a global sense, as Christians have been in the past. Both groups have certainly done terrible things in the name of a god, but as an atheist I find it almost painfully ironic to think what would happen if a potential fundamentalist Christian and a potential fundamentalist Muslim been swapped at birth and raised by the 'wrong' parents in the 'wrong' country. Religion is basically a culturally predetermined attribute and people would do well to remeber the famous refutation of Pascal's Wager

Basically, my point is that the reason the anger of fundamentalist Islam was and is directed at America is very complicated, but is not without provocation on America's part

Agreed, but I view this as the natural competition between states. We are better at it.

Also Muslims are not nearly as agressive, in a global sense, as Christians have been in the past.

I disagree. The fact that you are allowed to be an atheist is rather telling of which civilization is currently ahead of the game in terms of peace. Your average Muhammed Q. Public may not be a jihadi, but his religion allows for it explicitly. Christian scholars had to really stretch to enable Christian kingdoms to defend themselves militarily. Muslim scholars had no such difficulty in rationalizing the conquest of non-Muslim lands. They still don't.

painfully ironic to think what would happen if a potential fundamentalist Christian and a potential fundamentalist Muslim been swapped at birth and raised by the 'wrong' parents in the 'wrong' country.

Conjecture for me, I am not imaginative.

Religion is basically a culturally predetermined attribute and people would do well to remember the famous refutation of Pascal's Wager

Religion is certainly influenced by culture and by historical context, but we must be careful not to confuse religion with the teachings of a faith. Religion is the expression of that faith which attempts to impart universal Truths. I don't know the refutation of Pascal's Wager. It seems like a safe bet to me.


[this is good]
I really hope you are not representative of America as a whole. "Natural competition", as you put it, is merely a byword for jingoistic interventionalism which should have no place in modern politics.

Also Muslims are not nearly as agressive, in a global sense, as Christians have been in the past.

If I may cite Spain as an example, instead of burning and looting Christian churches, the Muslim conquerers simply bought the land on which the churches were founded and converted them into mosques. European Christians were the aggressors during the Crusades and their violent anti-heretic stance spread not only to the invasion of Muslim countries, but also to the slaughter of Jews. Conversion to Islam was not enforced either, it was mainly Christians who 'discovered' the world and then attempted to impose Christianity as the one true faith on all and sundry. Also, look up what Christians are explicitly allowed to do: Deuteronomy 22:28-29 for example.

Conjecture for me, I am not imaginative . . . I don't know the refutation of Pascal's Wager. It seems like a safe bet to me.

They would, fairly obviously, defend vehemently the religion they had been brought up in, rather than seeking out other religions. The famous repudiation of Pascal's Wager is that it fails to take into account other religions. It is merely deciding between the Christian god and atheism, whereas, in reality, it is deciding beteween theism and atheism, and, if deciding on theism, then deciding which branch of said theism, and then deciding on which denomination of said branch of said theism. You know how god hates those heretics...

The famous repudiation of Pascal's Wager

It's not famous, man.

it fails to take into account other religions.

I don't see how that's relevant. For all I know there could be a Muslim wager out there. If we're saying that culture is a big determinant in religion and its teachings then can't we agree that Christianity has a leg up on Islam in a lot of respects?

They would, fairly obviously, defend vehemently the religion they had been brought up in, rather than seeking out other religions.

The difference being that if the Christian boy wanted to convert to Islam he would have a much easier time of it than the Muslim boy converting to Christianity.

jingoistic interventionalism which should have no place in modern politics.

So...what should modern politics consist of?

Also Muslims are not nearly as agressive, in a global sense, as Christians have been in the past.

Please. Christianity started out as a small cult that was persecuted by Romans and Judaism at once. It continued to be attacked for 300 years until finally it won over a Roman emperor.

Contrast this with Islam, which was persecuted for about 10 years before Muhammed had enough and started a war with Mecca. Then contrast the spread of Islam with the spread of Christianity. Muslim expansion came at the point of a sword, and there is no denying this fact. Also, the state of Christians and Jews was that of dhimmis in the Muslim territories. Tax-paying dhimmis. Christians and Jews were actually prevented from converting to Islam. Their social status was thus limited by their new ruling class.
Christendom embarked on the Crusades because the Muslims had spent centuries conquering Christian lands. Conquering, not buying. They went up through Africa into Spain and France, and they attacked the Byzantine Empire relentlessly. It was in fact the Emperor who requested military aid. While it is true he didn't expect an army of 30,000 to show up at his door, they were invited. It wasn't Christian aggression, it was that they ran out of other cheeks to turn.

Of the two faiths, only a person with a clearly anti-Christian agenda would label Islam as the more peaceful.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Har har. You'd have to take that issue up with a Jew from 500 B.C. Christ, so the belief goes, taught things a little differently. If you wanted to be fair you could mosey on over to a Christian (preferably Catholic, I admit my bias) site that explains the Christian teaching on the passages. Look, I know you're an anti-theist, but I'm sure you can make an objective statement that Christianity is a less "damaging" religion than Islam, past and present. If you had to choose to be an atheist in a predominantly religious country, which one would you go for? America, or Saudi Arabia?



Ugh, I feel off-topic. I still think that D'Souza's point was valid.

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